HomeMy WebLinkAboutPublic Works February 23 19992
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WHATCOM COUNTY COUNCIL
Public Works and Capital Projects Committee
February 23, 1999
The meeting was called to order at 1:30 p.m. by Committee Chair Barbara Brenner in the
Council Chambers, 311 Grand Avenue, Bellingham, Washington.
Also Present: Absent:
Ward Nelson None
Tom Brown
COMMITTEE DISCUSSION
DISCUSSION REGARDING THE POSSIBLE PURCHASE OF 40 ACRES OF OLD
GROWTH (THE LAND OWNER HAS INDICATED HE MAY BE WILLING TO
DONATE THE VALUE OF THE LAND AND OTHER TIMBER, IF HE COULD BE
REIMBURSED FOR THE OLD - GROWTH CONIFER) (AB99 -092)
Brown stated that Jake Steiner has made the offer of 40 acres of old growth spruce forest.
This is unique because a small portion of the property borders the Nooksack River. On this
property, there is McDonald Creek and other small streams. There are also beaver ponds in the
area. The area has future salmon enhancement possibilities. A feeder stream is currently used
by some species of salmon. It is an opportunity to put aside land for future generations. Steiner
currently allows teachers to come through the area. Steiner made the offer to donate the land and
the value of the other timber and sell only for the appraised value of the old growth spruce. State
Department of Natural Resources (DNR) land borders it. Access is through the North Fork
Road, then a short walk across DNR land on an old railroad grade.
Jake Steiner, 9125 Mt. Baker Highway, Deming, stated that he has been approached
before about selling the land. He deeded some of it to the children. He wanted something to
happen to the timber besides it being harvested. There are 47.8 acres. It borders on State DNR
land. There is an old railroad grade from the end of the North Fork Road. The timber is there
because it is in a protected hollow and hasn't had a chance to blow over.
Brenner questioned whether there has been an appraisal of the value of the old growth
conifers. Steiner stated that there has not.
Brown stated that Steiner is willing to participate in the crews of the timber.
Brenner questioned whether there is another road access. Steiner stated that there is a
road to it.
Nelson stated that it is an excellent idea. There are campgrounds in the area, but few
access points to the Nooksack along the North Fork. This would give the County proximity to
access to the river.
Public Works and Capital Projects, 2/23/99, Page 1
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Nelson moved to request the administration look into purchasing the land using
Conservation Futures funds, which would provide educational opportunities and natural habitat.
Steiner stated that access to the river at the other end may be available from his
grandchildren in the future.
Roger DeSpain, Parks and Recreation Director, stated that there is a tour of the area on
Thursday, February 25 at 1:00 p.m., weather permitting. They would meet at the Park and
Recreation office.
Brenner asked the most efficient way to bring this forward. DeSpain stated that the
committee should direct the Executive, who will direct him to begin the process. He will work
on getting an appraisal.
Motion carried unanimously.
COMMITTEE DISCUSSION AND RECOMMENDATIONS TO COUNCIL
ORDINANCE AMENDING WHATCOM COUNTY CODE CHAPTER 9.32
UNLAWFUL DISCHARGE OF FIREARMS (AB99 -040)
Brenner stated that Roger DeSpain, Parks and Recreation Director, provided a substitute
ordinance.
Connie Hoag, Council Member, proposed wording changes on the substitute ordinance,
subsection (A)(1) of section 9.32.085:
Possess a loaded firearm, which shall mean any firearm with a cartridge in any portion of
the firearm, except that person who has a valid concealed weapons permit or the firearm
is a muzzle - loading firearm, which is uncapped or unprimed, le leadin
Wareing stated that this issue was addressed in the substitute proposed ordinance. There
are three circumstances that warrant concern. Those three circumstances are outlined in the
substitute proposed ordinance. They have also restructured an affirmative defense. Section B
states that a concealed weapons permit is a defense against prosecution. They have gone through
the Revised Code of Washington (RCW). They also addressed hunters that hunt and camp in
adjacent areas. Any properly licensed hunter traversing in the area would not be prohibited. It is
appropriate for hunters to camp in the parks to access state hunting areas. They have addressed
all the issues that the Council expressed.
Brown read from the Revised Code of Washington (RCW) Section 9.41.270. It is the
"Brandishing a Weapon" code. The County can already use this statute to alleviate
circumstances that the County is trying to regulate.
Brenner questioned whether there is a third degree of reckless endangerment about
brandishing a weapon.
Public Works and Capital Projects, 2/23/99, Page 2
I Dave Grant, Senior Civil Deputy Prosecutor, stated that brandishing a weapon acts as the
2 third degree level of reckless endangerment. There is first degree, second degree, then
3 brandishing a weapon.
4
5 Nelson stated that is the key issue. He questioned whether the County administration
6 feels that there is not adequate coverage under current State law to protect park employees or
7 park visitors.
8
9 Grant stated that he does not have an opinion one way or the other, he was only trying to
10 help draft a statute that would survive constitutional attack. He quoted from the Attorney
11 General opinion in response to questions regarding the authority for local jurisdictions to act in
12 the sense of regulating the possession or use of firearms. Their point is that, if the Council
13 chooses to enact the statute, then they do it for the proper reason, which is to enhance the general
14 welfare and safety of the community and people using the parks. The reason is to protect people
15 and staff in County parks.
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17 Nelson questioned whether it is necessary, and why, in regards to what currently exists as
18 State law.
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20 Roger DeSpain, Parks and Recreation Director, stated that the safety of the park
21 managers is the reason that this was brought forward. Policies are given to employees. When
22 they confront individuals in the park system, it is nice to be able to display the code that outlaws
23 certain behavior. He wants a code that specifically addresses his interest.
24
25 Brenner questioned the effect of adopting the State law on brandishing weapons instead
26 of the proposed ordinance and the intent of section 2(a) and 2(b) of the substitute proposed
27 ordinance. Wareing responded that those sections refer to a circumstance of an individual who is
28 threatening serious harm or death. It is about the right of the citizen to go to the parks without
29 being threatened or feeling threatened. Wareing stated that the presence and use of a weapon is
30 intimidating, but has nothing to do with brandishing a weapon.
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32 Brenner stated that her biggest concern is that people are protected in the park. She
33 doesn't believe that someone with a loaded firearm is necessarily a threat. Wareing stated that it
34 is not a threat if it is not displayed, this ordinance does not prohibit having a firearm in the park.
35 It uses the standard of the State law.
36
37 Brenner stated that the ordinance only addresses people with a concealed weapons
38 permit. Wareing responded that no one can have a loaded weapon in a vehicle without a
39 concealed weapons permit.
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41 Brown read from RCW 9.41.050. Concealed weapons are already covered under the
42 State statutes. Aiming a firearm is covered in RCW 9.41.230. All of the issues are already
43 covered under various State statutes. Parks Department staff only need to enforce what already
44 exists. It would be redundant to adopt an ordinance. Also, during the first time this was brought
45 up, the Park Manager stated that he spotted a pistol in a cabin. Brown questioned why the Park
46 Manager was in the cabin that the people rented.
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48 DeSpain stated that the manager was responding to a problem with the cabin. He was
49 invited in. That's where the problem starts. Other campers may spot a firearm and go to the
Public Works and Capital Projects, 2/23/99, Page 3
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Park Manager. He is not trying to tighten the law that currently exists. He is trying to have a
law that represents Whatcom County and is in one location.
Nelson questioned why park managers couldn't quote State law. DeSpain stated that it
should be a County law.
Nelson stated that DeSpain is asking for a policy. Administration establishes policies for
their departments and personnel. Wareing responded that this is a situation where they are
regulating conduct of non - County employees within a park.
Brown stated that it is already regulated in State law. Wareing stated that if it was
regulated effectively under State law, then the State law wouldn't also include the same
language. There is a higher level of enjoyment of people using State parks because they have
this additional protection.
Brenner stated that she is not intimidated if someone has a firearm, only if they are using
it in an intimidating way. People have different levels of comfort, but that should not be the
basis of County law. Brenner questioned how one has to have a concealed weapons permit to
have a shotgun in a camper.
Grant stated that one of the reasons that it is being proposed is that it is not a crime to
have a concealed weapon on your person or in your place of abode. Court decisions have
established that a campsite is considered an abode.
Brenner questioned whether a shotgun is a concealed weapon. Wareing responded that
any loaded weapon in a car is a loaded weapon.
Brenner stated that concealed means that someone is intentionally keeping it out of view.
Nelson stated that when the State law changed, Whatcom County was exempted from the
concealment law. In the City of Bellingham, one cannot walk down the street with a weapon
visible. One can in the County.
Myron Hawkins, State Department of Fish and Wildlife, stated that a concealed weapon
is only a short firearm, such as a handgun or anything with a barrel under 16 inches long. It is
unlawful to carry a loaded rifle or shotgun in a vehicle.
Brenner questioned whether a person sleeping in a camper can have a loaded shotgun or
rifle. Hawkins stated that technically it is illegal, but no one would enforce that. In the time it
takes to load a weapon one can better assess the situation.
Brown stated that there are also situations in which someone may not have time to load a
weapon.
Wareing stated that there needs to be an appropriate balance between protecting the
public and preserving the right to bear arms. The proposed ordinance doesn't take any rights
away from individuals who want to protect themselves and their family.
Hoag withdrew her motion. (Seepage 2)
Public Works and Capital Projects, 2/23/99, Page 4
2 Hoag questioned whether the County is covered under State law to handle a situation in
3 which someone has a loaded weapon lying on a park table, and they are not doing anything with
4 it.
5
6 Brown quoted RCW 9.41.050. They had to get it to the table one way or the other.
7
8 Hoag stated that section deals with a concealed weapon. Even if they have to get it there,
9 they had to be caught doing the illegal activity in order to cite the person. They are not trying to
10 address that.
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12 Grant stated that the genesis of the ordinance is to deal with people that have a loaded
13 gun on display.
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15 Hoag asked if it is regulated currently under State law and not being enforced.
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17 Grant stated that it is only regulated in State parks. A loaded gun that is displayed in a
18 State park is illegal. It is not illegal at a County park.
19
20 (Clerk's Note: End of tape one, side A.)
21
22 Brenner questioned whether people are allowed to be drunk in County parks. Wareing
23 stated that they are.
24
25 Hawkins stated that RCW 9.41.050 is the provision for a concealed pistol. Section
26 9.41.060(A) allows people doing recreational activity such as camping and hiking to have a
27 concealed pistol. It does not include a rifle or shotgun. It only includes concealed pistols.
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29 Nelson stated that there is concern about the public's enjoyment of the parks. There are
30 times that people want to be assured of safety within public facilities. He wanted to protect all
31 people. He questioned whether this is the only mechanism to allow staff to 1. maintain the
32 protection of individuals and 2. protect the second amendment. He also questioned whether it
33 was possible instead to establish policies and procedures for the Parks staff to enforce the State
34 statutes.
9M,
36 DeSpain stated that his only concern is that it would have teeth to enforce.
37
38 Wareing stated that the rules, from a law enforcement standpoint and applicability
39 standpoint, are called County ordinances. DeSpain cannot make a rule that the law enforcement
40 officers can enforce.
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42 Brown questioned whether the Sheriff could enforce State law. Wareing stated that they
43 could.
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45 Brown stated that, at a previous meeting, the Council heard that the Sheriff had no means
46 of doing anything with an individual that was drunk and had a weapon in his hand. That was
47 part of the reason this ordinance was brought up. Wareing responded that as not the case.
48
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Brenner stated that she believed they were referring to the Parks Department staff not
being able to do anything.
DeSpain stated that the Park staff tries to deal with the situation before it escalates. If
they see the firearm in the possession of someone who is drunk or acting rowdy, it would be
convenient to show a County law that a displayed gun is illegal.
Wareing stated that this is a reasonable County ordinance and it is a reasonable action
that the Parks Department is trying to take. They are trying to maintain the rights of people to
responsibly and lawfully keep and bear arms and protect their families. There isn't anything in
the ordinance that precludes protection. Failing to provide the kind of protection that the people
should reasonably expect does impact the ability to enjoy park facilities. It is fair and balanced.
It provides an understanding for everyone using the park about the rules.
Dawson questioned whether it was correct that the State Park law, which is more
restrictive than State law on brandishing a weapon, does not cover the County parks. Grant
stated that is correct.
Dawson stated that is why they need to have a County law.
Brenner suggested that the RCW on brandishing a weapon be adopted.
Wareing stated that would be redundant and would serve no purpose from an
enforcement standpoint.
Grant stated that the County cannot enforce the State law that protects State parks. The
State chose to put in place a regulation that prohibits loaded firearms in the State parks. That
regulation only applies within the boundaries of the State park. The RCW section on
brandishing a weapon does apply to the County.
Wayne Sherwood, 5804 Hannegan, was concerned about creating laws that would create
pitfalls for law- abiding citizen. He and his family experienced an incidence in which they used
their weapons to protect themselves.
Brenner stated that she can understand having more severe restrictions in cultivated park
areas. In the more remote areas, people should have the option to carry a firearm. It seems like
this is already covered. If someone has a concealed weapon, then they have the right to carry it.
They have been through the background checks. Someone with a weapon that is not concealed
is not allowed to have it loaded, according to State law. She suggested adopting the State laws
that already exist.
Nelson questioned Sherwood about how he would feel if someone who is drunk in a park
has a loaded weapon. Sherwood stated that he would feel uncomfortable.
Nelson stated that is the issue. It is a question of whether a park visitor feels comfortable
sitting in a public place, without having to worry about another park visitor who may be
displaying a weapon. He agreed with Brown's concerns. He doesn't want to make any more
laws. However, the one area that they miss is whether the public is secure in thought in public
Public Works and Capital Projects, 2/23/99, Page 6
I places. The proposed ordinance doesn't prohibit one from having a gun if he or she has a
2 concealed weapons permit. It does prohibit one from having it out and openly displayed.
3
4 Brenner stated that it is not a concealed weapons permit, it is a concealed pistol permit,
5 which doesn't protect a person against other things.
6
7 Brown stated that the issue is that all weapons should be out of site.
8
9 Wareing stated that if there is a concealed weapons permit and a person has a weapon,
10 shotgun, or rifle, in a vehicle, then a law enforcement officer is not going to care.
12 Hawkins disagreed.
13
14 Wareing stated that it is not a concern from a law enforcement standpoint. He proposed
15 to modify the ordinance by striking section (A)(1). That would only make display and discharge
16 of a weapon illegal. A discharge in the act of protection oneself would be allowed.
17
18 Sherwood agreed with the proposed amendment to remove section (A)(1).
19
20 Brenner stated that she would like section (A)(2) expanded to ensure that someone could
21 display their weapon for their protection if felt threatened. She also wanted section (B) to be
22 changed so that it does not infer that the person is guilty until they prove that they are innocent.
23
24 Hoag stated that the wording in Section B is not a problem because it requires a person to
25 show a proof of their permit.
26
27 Brenner stated that the wording is offensive.
28
29 Hoag questioned whether the muzzle - loading firearm issue would still be addressed if
30 that subsection was removed and whether a hunter is exempted.
31
32 Wareing stated that the proposal is to not allow the display of any firearm. He will look
33 at the proposal to ensure a hunter is exempted.
34
35 Grant stated that, by eliminating section (A)(1), they are saying that the County does not
36 care if there is a loaded firearm. He agreed with changing the focus to only regulate the display
37 and discharge of the firearm.
38
39 Wareing stated that a person would still have the right to keep and bear arms, but it
40 cannot be displayed to cause concern for other people.
41
42 Grant stated that if they take out section (A)(1) to accommodate the State law allowing
43 people to have a concealed weapon, then section 2 should be deleted and subsections (2)(a) and
44 (2)(b) should become their own sections.
45
46 Nelson questioned whether making (a) and (b) separate sections would make it more
47 lenient than State law.
48
49 Grant stated that the County can't be more lenient than State law.
Public Works and Capital Projects, 2/23/99, Page 7
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Sherwood stated that someone in their vehicle with a weapon should be allowed to load
the weapon if they feel threatened.
Brown questioned whether they could just add a sentence stating that this ordinance in no
ways takes away the right to defend oneself.
Wareing stated that this proposed ordinance will be taken back to the drawing board.
Grant questioned whether the committee wants them to address leaving a loaded firearm
unattended.
The committee concurred that they would like this addressed.
OTHER BUSINESS
ADJOURN
The meeting adjourned at 2:55 p.m.
Jill Nixon, Minutes Transcription
ATTEST: WHATCOM COUNTY COUNCIL
WHATCOM COUNTY, WASHINGTON
Dana Brown- Davis, Council Clerk Barbara Brenner, Committee Chair
Public Works and Capital Projects, 2/23/99, Page 8