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HomeMy WebLinkAboutSurface Water Work Session July 18 20061 Whatcom County Council 2 Special Surface Water Work Session 3 4 July 18, 2006 5 6 Council Chair Laurie Caskey- Schreiber called the meeting to order at 10:12 a.m. in 7 the Whatcom County Civic Center Annex, Second Floor Meeting Room, 322 IN. Commercial, 8 Bellingham, Washington. 9 10 11 Present: Absent: 12 Barbara Brenner Carl Weimer 13 Dan McShane 14 Seth Fleetwood 15 L. Ward Nelson 16 Sam Crawford 17 18 19 SURFACE WATER WORK SESSION (AB2006 -025) 20 21 1. SWIFT CREEK SEDIMENT MANAGEMENT 22 23 Bruce Roll, Public Works Department, stated a brief history of the Swift Creek Area 24 and concerns related to deposited sediment and asbestos. The Health Department will 25 present the regulatory framework related to asbestos in these activities. He will discuss 26 management alternatives and their relative costs, to understand the options. 27 28 Overview of Current Status 29 30 Roll stated that Sumas sediment originates on Sumas Mountain. In recent years, 31 much more sediment has come down and deposited on the alluvial fan. He indicated the 32 location on a presentation (on file). This doesn't go into the Nooksack River. It is an active 33 slide with unlimited amounts of material. Material comes down at a rate of 120,000 cubic 34 yards per year. This is a very dynamic system, influenced by weather and other factors. 35 There can be 25,000 to 150,000 cubic yards deposited per year. Estimates and costs are 36 average. 37 38 Annually, two to four feet of sediment every year goes into the drainage system. 39 The stream is higher than adjoining countryside. The area is predominantly agricultural. 40 Sediment doesn't allow for prolific plant growth. A concern is that the material will hinder 41 agriculture land. The County has had to help dredge the area periodically. He described 42 the alluvial fan area. 43 44 Most of the work done by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has occurred 45 between Goodwin and Oak Coles Road. The Public Works Department is taking a systems 46 approach. The issues are from the slide down into the Sumas River and beyond. 47 Management strategies are going to be to the entire system. Sediment has been deposited 48 all over the alluvial fan. 49 50 To date, they have addressed sediment deposition in the specific area. Large scale 51 annual excavation occurs each year. Most material is then deposited on the side. On 52 average, a football field covered 50 feet deep is the amount coming down. 53 Surface Water Work Session, 7/18/2006, Page 1 1 They have never transported the material off the site. More recent concerns 2 question whether current practices can be done in the future. The issue is of naturally 3 occurring asbestos in this material. He read the slide on the history of asbestos issue 4 development. The Public Works Department is trying to follow regulatory steps to handle 5 the material. 6 7 Jeff Hegedus, Health Department, stated Public Works staff came to the Health 8 Department regarding the materials not leaving the site to ask regulatory oversight of 9 naturally occurring asbestos. It is an emerging area of concern. "there is no clear guidance 10 in the regulations for how to manage this type of material. No one is offering any clear 11 guidance. 12 13 Their first response to Public Works staff about requirements is that there is no good 14 regulatory direction. Therefore, from a health -based risk assessment, they must determine 15 if there is a risk to public health. Then, look at other similar sites with this problem. Now, 16 the first step is happening. Everyone is working to answer whether there is a public health 17 risk at this site from naturally occurring asbestos. That's difficult to assess. They must 18 determine how much asbestos is in the assessment. They have some information. They 19 don't know the exposure pathway or how much is airborne. Because the agencies are 20 concerned, they are working to answer those questions. In the meantime, be conservative 21 about what to do with the material. 22 23 A location in Montana is the most known area with this problem. There is also an 24 area in California that has mitigated the public health risk. That site has a different type of 25 asbestos that is in surface veins, which is dug up when there is digging activity. The county 26 has done dust control, best management practices (BMP's), and engineering controls to 27 mitigate potential public health risk. The EPA is preparing to do that here. Activity based 28 sampling is to see if any activities around this sediment present some level of risk. In El 29 Dorado County in Montana, the EPA simulated activities to see if asbestos floated around in 30 the air. 31 32 Roll stated the Public Works Department hired a consultant to come up with a long - 33 term sediment management plan a couple of years ago. That plan made it to a draft form. 34 The draft came up against changes in 2005. To complete the draft, they need answers and 35 guidance on the different BMP options. There will be estimates for first year start up costs 36 and costs for maintenance of the site for 25 years. He read the slides on the alternative 37 long -term management strategies. 38 39 Nelson asked if option one is really an option, since the EPA doesn't want the 40 material removed. Roll stated it's the only option they have now, depending on whether the 41 material can be removed. This is what it will cost if movement can be done. 42 43 These are all private properties. The County has an easement to haul out the 44 material. The County is not in the business of hauling away the material. He continued to 45 read the description of each of the alternatives from the presentation (on file). He read the 46 summary of the alternatives and cost estimates. 47 48 A flood season is coming. There is a capacity for 30,000 cubic yards at the existing 49 site. They plan to start work by August 1. When done, there will be 100,000 to 150,000 50 cubic yards stockpiled on each side. To remove the material, they must pull the material 51 back, put in a road, and then move out the material. They have to move the material a 52 couple of times. Also, the County has existing easements for only certain areas for 53 stockpiling. Now they are at capacity in those easement areas. Surface Water Work Session, 7/18/2006, Page 2 1 2 Clayton Silvis, Public Works Department, handed out detour maps if an event 3 happens. If there were an event, Goodwin Road at Sorenson Road will be closed. Any 4 amount of rainfall will flood Breckenridge. He indicated the location on a map (on file). 5 Yellow indicates the detour route on the map. It is a three -mile detour. 6 7 Roll stated that is for a small event. 8 9 Silvis stated the next scenario (on file) is if Goodwin Road closes because Swift Creek 10 is washed out. He indicated the detour route on the map. 11 12 The third scenario (on file) is in case of a major event. He indicated the detour route 13 on the map. The creek goes across South Pass Road, Goodwin Road, and Oat Coles Road. 14 15 Paul Pittman, Public Works Department, stated that if Goodwin Road and South Pass 16 Road go out, it will be impossible to go west or south. Trucks will have to go around Sumas 17 Mountain to go south. Goodwin Road takes a lot of truck traffic. 18 19 Roll stated they are talking about impacts public infrastructure only. They are not 20 talking about impacts to private interests. 21 22 McShane asked if the area at Goodwin Road and Massey Road ever floods. Silvis 23 stated it does not to his knowledge. 24 25 Roll stated there is a concern that it can move across and hit Breckenridge Road to 26 the north. Breckenridge Creek hasn't been influenced by this work. 27 28 A lot of data has been collected to date. They don't have good benchmarks for 29 interpreting the data. One of the potential guidelines for effects to humans is one percent 30 of the total weight of the material. The data is consistent over time, in terms of the 31 concentrations they're finding. 32 33 Hegedus stated a 1995 study showed 0.8 percent of asbestos in the dredged 34 sediment. At that time, it was compared to the one percent level, and was considered 35 acceptable. The current study of dredged materials shows 1.1 and 1.7 percent asbestos in 36 the fines, which is the concern because they can become airborne. 37 38 Brenner asked the kind of asbestos and if asbestos can get in groundwater and if it 39 will be a problem if they are to do the basin alternative. Hegedus stated this type of 40 asbestos is considered less hazardous than El Dorado County material. It is also very wet 41 here. The particles tend not to move through groundwater unless there is a real core 42 sediment. 43 44 Roll stated the City of Bellingham routinely found asbestos fibers in the drinking 45 water, a result from cement lined pipes. 46 47 Delahunt stated asbestos is an inhalation hazard. 48 49 Fleetwood asked how to consider a long -term management strategy before they 50 know the risk. Roll stated an example is drinking water regulations. Consider health and 51 risk in a contaminant. Also consider how a purveyor can distribute water with a 52 contaminant. Weigh the relative risk and ability to treat. Concurrently, consider doable 53 management strategies and risk, so there is a marriage of the two. They don't have to do Surface Water Work Session, 7/18/2006, Page 3 one before the other. All data should support the management options. When data comes in, have guidance on which option is most appropriate. McShane asked how the pipeline fits into alternative five. Pittman stated the pipeline runs parallel to Goodwin Road. In the past, the sediment basin was upstream of the pipeline, at the apex of the alluvial fan. There would have to be some design accounting for the fact that there is a pipeline downstream of the structure. Caskey- Schreiber asked if they are moving the pipeline now. Pittman stated it is adjacent to the existing pipeline. Caskey- Schreiber asked if that is a problem. Pittman stated the channel pattern has been to bury those pipelines deeper. The channel sometimes both incises and aggrades. A 26 -inch pipeline was recently exposed. There is some vertical movement of the channel over time that would have to be taken into account. McShane stated the pipeline company wasn't aggressive about its stream crossings all along Sumas Mountain when they did the recent improvements to the pipeline. They only monitored, but didn't commit to the level of concern raised by some during the comment period. (Clerk's Note: End of tape one, side A.) McShane stated they should look carefully at the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) licensing specific to how they approach geologic hazards at Sumas Mountain. They chose not to reroute a number of geologic hazards. Use it as a wedge to put it deeper or reroute around a number of hazards. Consider that size and scale of deposition. Brenner asked if they have done any general comparison of the rates of diseases or infections from airborne asbestos in this county compared to the rates in the United States. Hegedus stated the Health Department is working to see if there are elevated instances of mesothelioma in Whatcom County. Preliminary data results show no evidence of elevated incidents. However, it is difficult to study. There is no statistical significance to conclude one way or another. People may have occupational exposure locally or from another area of the country. Delahunt stated local rates are not statistically different from the rates in the state. Caskey- Schreiber stated someone mentioned possibility of transferring the material to private gravel pits. She asked if there is any risk to that other than inhalation. Delahunt stated the only risk is from inhalation. Caskey- Schreiber asked if there is any risk downstream to shoreline areas. (Clerk's Note: The Council took a ten - minute break at 11:00 a.m.) Denise Baker, Environmental Protection Agency, submitted and gave a presentation (on file). A copy of the April 4th, 2006 letter from the EPA to the County said the EPA will take on this issue. They have finished sampling. The results were given in draft on July 3, which is very fast. Julie Wroble, an EPA toxicologist and asbestos expert, will speak. Also, Cliff Villa will speak on regulatory questions. The EPA will meet with the residents at Swift Surface Water Work Session, 7/18/2006, Page 4 1 Creek tonight. There is a fact sheet (on file). They will share the fact sheet with the 2 property owners. The EPA is using an aggressive schedule. They have tried to do six things 3 since April 4. 4 1. Get the data about what is in the pile 5 2. Do activity based sampling to determine mineralogy and associated risk 6 3. Talk to regulatory authorities to figure out what they can do given all the 7 regulations of the site 8 4. Short term mitigation and flooding control, to see if EPA can help make sure there 9 will be no flood this year, to buy time for planning 10 5. Share information with community, property owners, and legislators 11 6. Long term planning for the site 12 13 She read the presentation on awareness of asbestos in swift creek (on file). Some 14 who live near the site think that the asbestos is not a problem because it is naturally 15 occurring. That's not necessarily true. She will share that information with the community 16 tonight. 17 18 She read the slide on how the EPA got involved. She has been in contact with every 19 agency involved, except the tribes, at least every two weeks. She read the slide on what 20 the EPA has done so far. 21 22 Nelson asked what is grab sampling. 23 24 Julie Wroble, EPA Region 10 toxicologist, stated many people in the region have 25 worked on asbestos for years. The EPA sent a field geologist out in April to determine 26 whether there truly is asbestos. The sampling got them some initial data and allowed those 27 folks to scope out the field. A grab sample is literally grabbing anything interesting and 28 putting it in a jar. 29 30 Baker read the slide on what they know so far. 31 32 Wroble submitted and read her slide presentation (on file). She has been asked 33 many questions so far regarding asbestos in this location. She is with an EPA national work 34 group. There is an increased agency focus because of the Libby site in Montana. Hundreds 35 of people died and thousands have health effects from asbestos exposure from a mine. She 36 also worked in other locations around the country. 37 38 She read the slide on what asbestos is. Properties that make it potent also make it 39 useful in industrial applications. When they sample sites, they look for very tiny fibers that 40 can be held deep into the lung, which are damaging. She showed photos and discussed the 41 types of asbestos called serpentine and amphibole. Amphibole fibers have been thought to 42 be more toxic, but they are reevaluating it's potency. Fibers that are a cancer concern are 43 longer than five microns in length, between .25 and three microns in width, with an aspect 44 ratio of three -to -one. 45 46 She discussed the slide on naturally occurring asbestos and types of asbestos fibers. 47 Asbestos is a solid solution. A fiber can be one type on one end and transform to another 48 type at the other end of the fiber. The two types observed in EPA samples are chrysotile 49 and actinolite at this site. To date, the amount is a small number of the total. 50 51 When characterizing exposure and risk, asbestos can't hurt if it is left alone. She 52 read the slide on potential problems with naturally occurring asbestos (NOA), asbestos 53 health effects, asbestos related diseases, how a person can become exposed to asbestos, Surface Water Work Session, 7/18/2006, Page 5 fiber deposition in the lung, and how to measure exposure. The concern is when the fibers get into the air. Over the last five years, they learned that a person moving will pick up more asbestos than a stationary object. As a person moves around, they have a "pig pen" effect dust cloud surrounding them that they breath in. Next month, they will do activity - based sampling at this site. She read the slide on why the EPA is concerned. Some of the diseases have a ten to 30 year latency. Even though exposure might occur now, one might not have a disease for a really long time. A very small population here is impacted. They might not see disease rates yet because there are not 10,000 people living at Swift Creek, but they want to prevent it from happening in the first place. Most of what they collected was soil data, and they did a crude analysis. The levels were from .1 to four percent. However, they also put pumps on workers doing the sampling and also stationary monitors in the area. It was not a study designed to measure exposure. It was just an opportunity to collect samples. They found .05 fibers per cc, which is half the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) limit for workers. From that data, they found each fiber's mineralogy, length, and width dimensions, which were very important. They could determine the type of asbestos at this location. That helps her understand the health risk. She showed microscope images of bundles of asbestos on a slide. She read the slide on what the EPA is proposing to do and the summary of EPA concerns. Brenner asked if they are finding enough fibers that are dangerous. Wroble stated they are finding the type of fiber that is equated to some risk. They are seeing two different types that fit the size and shape that cause a concern. McShane stated it is the size and shape that is critical, not the type. Wroble stated disease is associated with both types. Fibers that are thinner than what fits into that definition are a concern. They have found those thinner fibers, also. She is starting to be concerned about the data. The one percent level came about based on what was put into building materials and whether they were asbestos - containing materials. It doesn't have anything to do with a health risk. Caskey- Schreiber asked if there are any other health risks besides to the lungs. Wroble stated the lung diseases are predominant. There may be other issues that could occur. Brenner asked how this fiber size compares with the problems at Libby. Wroble stated she doesn't know as much about Libby. Their fibers tend to be shorter and fatter, which may result in the non - cancer effects seen in Libby, which has a very unique situation. Crawford stated the County uses lignosite, a wood byproduct, for dust control. He asked if there is experience with using lignosite for dust control on the asbestos area. Wroble stated one area was actually paved with asphalt over a roadbed with asbestos. She doesn't know the depth and how it would last over time. Crawford stated spray the new dredged areas with lignosite. It's kind of sticky. It's completely non - toxic. Wroble stated there is one substance used for that purpose, but they need to know how it weathers and holds up over time. Baker read the last slide in her presentation on the issues they want to resolve and the next steps. Surface Water Work Session, 7/18/2006, Page 6 Cliff Villa, EPA Attorney, stated some legal issues have come up. He would discuss some of the regulatory framework and possible management options. He referenced the alternatives presented by Dr. Roll in his presentation. So far, asbestos is not designated as a hazardous waste. If it were hazardous waste, it would be much more expensive to deal with. The EPA has done an internal legal analysis. They need to hear from the State Attorney General on defining the hazardous waste. Alternative three is not seriously being considered. (Clerk's Note; End of tape one, side 8.) Villa continued to state that the dominant alternative from the EPA is alternative two. They can do something like alternative two within the scope of the regulatory framework. Asbestos regulation is a curious thing. They are trying to not make distinctions between the different forms of asbestos. Asbestos is not listed as a hazardous waste. It is subject to Clean Air requirements. The Northwest Clean Air Agency has jurisdiction over material of one percent or more, of which the dredge piles have. However, they are talking about actions that won't apply to this scenario. They will have to find some alternative, other than prescribed regulations and the local Clean Air regulations. He is prepared to work with the County to do that. There is flexibility in local air regulations for alternative means of handling. They will be able to determine the right requirements. The legal framework of the EPA is from the federal Superfund statute, which doesn't distinguish different types of asbestos. That gives them authority for emergency removal actions, which is the authority they're using now to conduct the investigation. They may use it to assist the County with removal and disposal. In addition to funding, there is liability associated with Superfund. If there is liability under Superfund, it's not just of the EPA. It could be the private property owners. Alternative six, which is no action, may result in damages. Those losses could be pursued through the Superfund liability framework or through the common law nuisance for trespass. Just doing nothing may have significant costs. They are trying to define the regulatory framework. They hope to work out a more definitive statement with the State about what this stuff is. For now, they are just saying that this is not hazardous waste. They are thinking about a local solution. Superfund isn't interested unless there is a specific risk. Caskey- Schreiber stated she is nervous about option two. Gravel pits are supposed to be reclaimed. She asked if they would cap the material. Villa stated that is an option. There are mountains of mining waste to deal with in other areas, as a similar scenario. Find some reasonable engineering method to get it out of the area. That is not ideal, but it may be the best they can do, given the resources and risk. Nelson asked the County's responsibility under Superfund. Villa stated there is an exception in the statute for naturally occurring material in the place it's naturally located. No one is liable for it sliding down the mountain. Liability occurs when it is moved, when someone can be exposed. Nelson stated it has been moved, but not by the County. Villa stated that is a lingering question. The intent of Superfund is to apply liability standards to the actions that have been done. Surface Water Work Session, 7/18/2006, Page 7 Nelson asked the typical financial cost to a county. He asked if the Superfund helps with that cost. Villa stated it depends on perceived risk and the work that needs to be done. They do the work first. If someone else is liable, they can negotiate an agreement to be reimbursed. Once the scope of work is defined, they will have an agreement on who does what. Nelson asked if Whatcom County should consider it a confidential issue if the County may be liable. Villa stated that depends on the legal counsel for the County. The EPA's issue now is to get through this season and make the area safe, then work on long -term solutions. It helps to have the options laid out and begin thinking of them. Start thinking about long -term costs. Fleetwood asked what the County can do to shield itself from liability. Villa stated the County can do well- defined work. McShane stated there are alternatives. It sounds like they need more information, and they will get more information in the future. He asked if the EPA could sign off on an alternative management handling. This is a unique clean up situation. Villa stated it depends on the plan, risk, and work. They would have to have a record that supports the work action. The idea is to have a plan for this year while thinking about alternatives for the long -term. Dewey Desler, Deputy Administrator, stated there may be liability from alternative six and also from past movement of the material. Jeff Groden, EPA, stated there is more liability with alternative one. Desler stated alternative six could include constructing new roads in the area outside the drainage pattern, and letting the sediment flow. He asked if there is liability associated with that option. He asked if the Public Works Department considered it. Roll stated they could refine that approach, through alternative six. Villa stated that approach could be done. They have considered that alternative in other areas, but they haven't found it a practical alternative. It depends on risk and how confident they are about access controls. Caskey- Schreiber asked if that is option four. Desler stated it seemed to be, but it was unclear about including roads to allow people to not use the Kendall highway. Roll stated it's a combination. Brenner stated this has been going on for thousands of years. She asked if there is a liability or health risk to all the properties that have ever received the material. She asked the geographic parameter. Villa stated naturally occurring materials create no liability. The health risk can be a concern. Wroble stated someone living in that area would have a higher risk. They would have to do community outreach and education. Most counties in California have an elevated risk. There should be an understanding of the elevated risk of living near this stuff. Surface Water Work Session, 7/18/2006, Page 8 Brenner asked if an individual can have their property tested. Wroble stated the test for its existence in the soil is inexpensive. That doesn't show if it is in the air, but if it is disturbed, they can assume it is in the air. There are steps to educate individuals about how not to disturb the materials. Hal Hart, Planning and Development Services Director, stated the County tracks filling and grading to some extent. He asked if an outcome of a plan would be increased tracking of this material, and if that tracking would be done by the State or locally. He asked if tracking is an immediate fix. Villa stated it can become a task. They want to know the material is used safely. There must be a path that breaks the exposure to people. The State Department of Ecology has regulations for beneficial use of hazardous material. McShane asked if any metals were tested. Wroble stated there were. In comparison to state averages, they have four or five elevated metals. Keep an eye on them, but they're not immediate problems. They have not considered whether they trigger regulation. McShane asked if the pH in an aquifer would be affected if placed in a gravel pit. Wroble stated that may happen. Caskey- Schreiber stated that if put in the pit and capped, it is considered reclaimed. She asked to what use would it be reclaimed, and who has the long -term liability for the site. Villa stated the County would put land use restrictions on the site. Future use depends on the nature of the material. Caskey- Schreiber stated gravel pits typically go down deep enough to reach the water table. She asked the risk to a water association well. She asked who would actually be responsible. Villa stated it depends. There is not much ingestion through drinking water. Barry Wenger, State Department of Ecology (Ecology), stated a question is liability from the point forward when they know it's not okay to use the material, not when (inaudible). Villa stated from the perspective of federal law, liability applies based on the material (inaudible). If there is a problem now, there must be a way to address it. Desler asked who has the liability if they let it flow naturally. Villa stated there are different kinds of liability to consider. If they pick the stuff up and move it, it's one thing. If they don't do anything and there are economic damages from flooding, there are liabilities to consider. Desler asked the set of taxpayers, local, State, or federal, that have responsibility and liability. Villa stated it depends on the specific obligations of the agencies. Hurricane Katrina is an example of questionable responsibilities. Fleetwood asked if there is not anything that specifically spells out obligations for a political subdivision called Whatcom County. Villa stated there are defined categories of liable parties who do something to affect the movement of natural substances. McShane stated he received a letter dated June 30, which he read. Baker stated they were told that the Public Works Department needed to do dredging this summer, by August 1. Surface Water Work Session, 7/18/2006, Page 9 1 Paul Pittman, Public Works Department, stated they tried to work when the channel 2 is dry. Work can be done from April or May through September, in dry years. It looks like 3 this year, August is the date until the rain starts. 4 5 Baker stated they needed to wait until August for activity -based sampling, so the 6 stream is dry. 7 8 Nelson asked if the samples are based upon a certain period or over a period of time. 9 Wroble stated they take the air sample over a period of time. Air samples can change 10 depending on weather, humidity, and many factors. The best they can do is extrapolate 11 exposure. 12 13 Nelson asked how they decide what level is unsafe. Wroble stated only a very low 14 level is safe. The data, and associated assumptions, will help define the total picture. 15 Toxicology takes length of time at risk into consideration. 16 17 Unidentified resident stated Whatcom County operated under the assumption that a 18 truckload had less than one percent. There was a study. Also, all of the air monitoring 19 done by Washington State Department of Labor and Industries for crews doing the 20 dredging, showed that not one of those air samples exceeded protection standards for 21 asbestos. The intent of Whatcom County has been to think everything is okay. Now, a 22 technicality may lead them to spend a half billion dollars over the next 25 years. 23 24 Larry Mades, Nooksack /Sumas Flood Control Subzone District Advisory Committee 25 Member, stated he is also a creek resident. He used this material under several of his 26 buildings. This becomes an international issue. This creek flows into Canada. Swift Creek 27 is a dead creek. There is no life in it. It is more than a local issue. The material is sitting 28 there. When airborne, a lot of people are exposed. The people who are affected are 29 interested in what is going on. Keeping the property owners informed of what is going on is 30 very important. 31 32 Brenner asked if Mr. Mades is interested in having the EPA come in to test. Mades 33 stated he is. Upstream from Oat Coles Road, there is not much vegetation grows. As it 34 becomes finer downstream and to the west, there is a lot of grass and tree coverage. It 35 takes awhile for the grass and trees to establish. 36 37 38 ADJOURN 39 40 The meeting adjourned at 12:30 p.m. 41 42 43 44 Jill Nixon, Minutes Transcription 46 %�e�o(u� led these minutes on September 26 2006. 47 �%% ... • t �i 48 ATT••y1��TC�,y.���1� WHATCOM COUNTY COUNCIL 49 WHATCOM COUNTY, WASHINGTON 50 = = 51 2 52 i �► - z 53 Dana�BroNr ND,9wi 06mnci , erk Lurie Caskey -Schre ber, Council Chair Surface Water Work Session, 7/18/2006, Page 10